terrorism is futile

[kiraofborg_PREV (deleted)]

[invisiblesteph]

You know what, I like your honesty Kira.

But really I dont think you have to run for office to have a right to complain. Its our world too, we have a right to speak our minds, it lets others know how we are feeling and gives poeple insight into different situations and perspectives. Just saying what you feel may seem like complaining but just by airing your thoughts you could be making a difference in someones life and that in itself is something. You dont have to go into politics to make a difference.

[lucifer666 (deleted)]

What happened there Steph? How come Kira deleted some posts I never even got a chance to read them!!

[invisiblesteph]

no idea...i wouldnt ever presume to understand people.

[cooky37]

Jamie to answer your guestion in two Words, Senators Kennedy (there are two now) not to mention all the other Irish sur names in Amercan Govt. (ok thats more then two) Who Supporters probably wrote more than one check to support "the struggle" We Americans are hipocrates

[lucifer666 (deleted)]

Well I would say its more the Irish vote in America ...... there's a hell of a lot of Irish American people. And it was easy at the time to support the Irish, they were fighting for their liberty from the English something the Americans knew all about. What annoys me today is they have condemned all types of terrorism and have thrown them all into the same box and I don't think it is that easy for example I wonder if the Iranian government and people started recieving terrorist attacks from a more pro democratic group who wanted to cease control of the country...... would they get Western support? You bet your life they would ...there would be none of this Terrorism was bad with them. Or maybe a better example is Zimbabwe whose people are treated extremely badly ......if a Terrorist group got organised there should they be condemned too with Bin Laden's groups.... I think not!!

And Jamie your absolutely right in saying ......

"After all Northern Ireland has been part of the British parlimentary union since 1801 which is a little longer than several states within the US union. A majority have voted to remain part of the Uk in every general election since 1921 following the Anglo-Irish Treaty"

I don't think however it is that clear cut though ...do you not think that the time the UK were ruling Ireland unopposed that many of their citizens came over to settle particularly in Northern Ireland and of course these people and their descendants were going to want to stay a part of England.....I put it to you had England not gone near Ireland the population of the Northern part would be very much the same as the rest of the country today!!

[ninjabear]

Ireland is a perfect example---and yes, I very much want to se a single, peaceful island nation, just as Scotland should have it's independence; but how to achieve this lofty goal?
I remember Quark arguing the illogic of "peace at any price" to a Vulcan member of the Maquis, and he was right; why pay retail when peace can be had at a bargain price?
Sadly, that is not the way we're going. I would not have invaded Iraq, but I don't get to make those decisions. The worst I'll say is I didn't vote for the current president, and hope my people choose better in two years.
The price of peace is eternal vigilance---but sometimes you see it coming, and have to stand in the way for the sake of the civilians. After all, the army isn't the only combat force in this hunt for those who mean us all harm (and that means these nuts are after you too, Lucifer666).

Sure, we could carpet bomb them until the rubble bounces then just take the damn oil---but we're striving for a measured response here. These people are taught from childhood to hate Christians and Jews---you are the infidel, it says so in their schoolbooks (having seen one for myself, I am appalled).

"How do you tear down a madman like Hitler? You don't shout back at him, because you become just like him; you bring him down with ridicule."
(the man who coined the term) Stand-up Philosopher Mel Brooks.
Love your enemies; it drives them nuts!

[ninjabear]

Exactly---but as Lucifer666 points out, the population in the north is biased in favor of English rule. Unification will not happen until that balance is changed---but by what means do you fight for a united homeland?
The technical term is asymetric warfare, and it's what separates a terrorist from a freedom fighter.
The difference? A freedom fighter---a patriot like those who fought for American indepencence, two hundred years ago---does his level best to achieve his goals with minimal collateral damage.
A terrorist just blows stuff up, and tries to maximize noncombatant casualties---oh and lest we forget secondary explosions, intended to get "first responders".
Terrorists are criminals at best, but I think of them as monsters that must be exterminated.

[lucifer666 (deleted)]

jamie77 wrote: The majority wishes to remain part of the United Kingdom is surely a more accurate statement and what is wrong with that? I hardly think England being the largest part of the UK and therefore having the largest number of voters and MPs constitutes ''English Rule''. Northern Ireland votes for MPs come general election just the same


The UK settlers and descendants who are a declining majority in Northern Ireland want to remain part of the UK is also an equally accurate statement to say!!
I have nothing really against the British to be honest Jamie ..only for their television channels while I was growing up my life would have been alot tougher I generally think the British people have good intentions today and a good culture...though if my parents heard me saying that I'd be lynched and don't get me started with my Grandparents (My Grandfather and My Great Uncle fought The Brtish and then in The Irish Civil War that raged after the British left Ireland .....which incidently was caused by disagreements over Northern Ireland not also becoming free) I can understand their views too because they come from a time that remembers the hard times when the British were quite nasty.....I however go my own way make my own choices on people besides we have to move on building bridges or we will all just get lost in an abyss of hate!! I do however get annoyed though when I hear the British talk like this is a foreign problem or as they put it The Irish Problem and something not of their making when the exact opposite is more accurate!!
And yes Jamie the Unionist people have a say and a vote I wouldn't have it any other way ....just remember there would be no unionist or unionism if Ireland was left alone amd not taken over in the first place.
Truthfully The Republic of Ireland doesn't want the Northern part back now ...its too expensive ...costs are too high ...there would be a huge increase in Unionist Terrorism ... I personally don't think its worth it!!


ninjabear wrote: Sure, we could carpet bomb them until the rubble bounces then just take the damn oil---but we're striving for a measured response here. These people are taught from childhood to hate Christians and Jews---you are the infidel, it says so in their schoolbooks (having seen one for myself, I am appalled).

No but America can support, arm and watch an Israeli Government and army to carpet bomb women and children to get two soldiers back.... Yes many of these cultures have taught hatred to their young but we compound that hate by acting without due care for their lives. We the West criticise those as biased against us yet we seem to give our own biasness to them a very dismissive pardon ... I put it to you they may have good reason to despise us. The whole Israel situation is a real example of this America in particular has shown a true favouritism to the Israeli side in all the negotiations there infuriating all the other Eastern Countries particularly when Israel has been wrong or has gone way over the top in their reaction to the situation like today's crisis. I know they are a victim of Terrorism and I condemn all the bombings and killings there but two wrongs do not make a right ....The Israeli People cannot just flatten and destroy an entire country under the guise of Home Security but actually out of retribution. Though how can we get the only power that they will listen to, to try and get them to ceasefire when this is the policy of the United States also.


"Our government has kept us in a perpetual state of fear--kept us in a continuous stampede of patriotic fervor--with the cry of grave national emergency. Always there has been some terrible evil at home or some monstrous foreign power that was going to gobble us up if we did not blindly rally behind it ..."
-General Douglas MacArthur

I like the American people too Ninjabear I wouldn't like to come across anti American because I'm not bud ....I also think it is possibble to criticise something without actually hating it or being 'Anti' it I just think your people have lost their way because of manipulation by a very agressive, a very hawkish administration that has been voted in twice now ...I think they have used the current terrorist crisis and fear to mold events in the way that suits their purpose and the purposes of those organistions that back them. However I know there are good American people hopefully next time they will get the majority vote and select a Democratic President.

"The current world situation has been deliberately created by these elites who manipulate both the so-called 'right' and the so-called 'left'. By controlling the resulting 'synthesis' - the end result of Hegelian 'thesis' and 'antithesis' - a Globalist New World Order is produced. You can call it techno-fascism or techno-feudalism, but the result is the same- a global consolidation and mega-corporate transnational centralization of power, capital and resources. And how does it work? By using 'managed conflict' or 'crisis management'. A crisis or problem is produced. Then the crisis is 'managed' and the problem is 'solved' with an outcome that is invariably favorable to the goals and agendas of the Global Power Elite."

- Antony Sutton, America's Secret Establishment

[ninjabear]

A popular joke is the one about an immigrant studying for his U.S. Citizenship test, who has concluded the second amendment is more important than the first because if you have a gun, you can say whatever you want.
Questioning your own government isn't just a cherished freedom, "It is a moral imperative!"

[ninjabear]

The simplest, albiet time-consuming way to unify Ireland? Move North.
Immigration: it worked for the Visigoths, the Mexicans and Cubans are doing it to U.S. so it should work for the Irish as well.

[ninjabear]

Strictly as an unbiased observer:
I believe Israel has every right to exist, to defend itself, and sieze territory in wars forced on them (all the cool countries have done it, why can't they?).
Let us not lose sight of the fact that it was not merely two ped Israeli soldiers that started this horrible waste of life and resources. Hezbollah fired into Israel first so if you don't want Israeli bombs and shells raining down on you, don't pick a fight with someone who will shoot back.
Long ago half the known world was ruled by Rome; should we just give it back to them? Many times, the map has been re-drawn, and will be again and again, until the lines finally become meanless and disappear.

[lucifer666 (deleted)]

ninjabear wrote: The simplest, albiet time-consuming way to unify Ireland? Move North.
Immigration: it worked for the Visigoths, the Mexicans and Cubans are doing it to U.S. so it should work for the Irish as well.
That is actually what is happening now at the moment Ninjabear people from the South are moving up there more now increasing Nationalism ....slowly but surely!!!



I know you say your unbiased Ninjabear and I'm sure you believe you are like most Americans but I don't think you can safely say that and be confident of your impartiality after all the American media is so pro Israel its hard for the normal person on the street to be any other way. I also believe Israel has a right now to exist too even though I disagree with how it was formed in the first place...Your right when you say it was more than just two Israeli soldiers being ped and there has been rockets fired into Israel ......I firmly concur that this terrorism has to stop....but tell me how discriminately bombing all of Lebanon is helping that cause....killing innocent women and children disproportionately. Displacing hundreds of thousands of people, innocent civilians not able to get any medical attention, not to mention those maimed and injured. I would be more for Israel if these attacks were more surgical in nature and actually targeted Hezbollah directly however Israel are just marking large territories they think these people may be no matter how many innocents there are there and then justifying that as a valid target!! I don't! and nor does the rest of the world! ....in fact we believe it is only making things worse because out of all the orphans that are created from this most will probably grow up becoming terrorists or supporting them. There seems to be no policy these days to try and understand the mentality of a terrorist ...it seems easier to label them monsters or so extreme they are beyond are understanding ....I think we need to talk to these people more, try an discover why they hate so much and try and reach a compromise. I know many will say there is no compromising with terrorism but how can anyone say that when nobody has ever really tried here!! "American Policy is that we don't deal with Terrorists" And as long as they keep that policy they will always suffer terrorism and part of me feels it is brought on America's own shoulders! I'd also understand that policy more if America was innocent in all this but quite frankly they are not hated by the Middle East for nothing .....I can already see your response to this .....That these terrorists attack your way of life, your democracy and your freedom ....Well I'm sorry but I don't see that as true I think it is more the opposite way these Terrorist believe their way of life is threatened by an interferring Democratic Western World.

Don't get me wrong I love the West ....I love our way of life, I was brought up to believe about morals and to have them I also believe very much in freedom particularly a Western type of freedom............. however something gnaws at the back of my mind what makes our laws, our freedoms, our ways of life so superior or more right that we can try and spread it or enforce it upon other different civilisations.

GRANGER: "They're so different."
PICARD: "Yes. But it's differences which have made us strong."

[cooky37]

If Lebanon had made an effort to control Hesbalah this would'nt have happened. Why do they blame the US when we are trying to keep out of it. The US does'nt to have a patch on this problem with a temp cease fire.

if Lebanon managed their border, like they said they would do hesbalah would not have been able to tunnel in to Isereal and steal the soldiers.

if Lebanon had gone to arrest the suspects in the ping this would be over

[lucifer666 (deleted)]

No harm to you Cooky but Israel have gone in twice into Lebanon and the United Nations forces have been in there for years before ....all couldn't get rid of Hesbollah so what makes you think a Lebanon's battered and bruised army was going to be able to do the job either .....remember the country is largely mountainous ....very hard to locate the enemy and of course they are sympathisers.
As for American involvement America has always got involved in these matters ....I tend to agree with you though they should do what every other country does and be interested and concerned but stay back and work it through the U.N. but they never do. And considering also that they have armed and financially supported Israel for years now even lately (sure there was a big kick up in Britain last week about bunker bombs from America being transported to Israel landing at a British Airport on route) so I think it is a bit rich to suggest that they are pulled into this conflict against their will in some way.