terrorism is futile

[ninjabear]

"We didn't believe the cheeky bounders would really come over."
These are the words of an RAF, WW-II fighter pilot, who rammed his Hurricane into an enemy plane to prevent the German bomber from reaching Buckingham Palace.

After the cowardly assault on the London Underground (what we Yanks generally call the subway), we all knew the first responders would make sure the fires were out, the injured were tended to, and that order would be restored; they have my deepest admiration and respect.
However I knew if I watched the news coverage long enough I'd see it, and sure enough. Moving quietly through the crowd was a nice lady, making sure everyone she met had a fresh hot cup of tea.

You cannot defeat these people. You can kill them, but unless you get them all the rest will make sure your nasty-(bleep) beatdown is finished in time for afternoon tea.

[jamie77]

[deleted]

[cooky37]

if we kill them they just become martyrs. we have to show them a way to accept others and not see them as a threat. Educate not eliminate....completly

[ninjabear]

Terrorism is counterproductive.

My point was that, after the first frightening hours, that fear turns to anger and the overwhelming desire to strike back---to ensure the safety of the innocent.
All the terrorists have done is earn the wrath of MI5, MI6 & Her Majesty's Royal Marines---none of whom will stop until the threat is eliminated.

The terrorists have achieved nothing---it's yet another sad example of "the illogic of waste"---but I admire the courage and resolve of the British people.

[ladyfluffstar (deleted)]

cooky37 wrote: if we kill them they just become martyrs. we have to show them a way to accept others and not see them as a threat. Educate not eliminate....completly

Exactly, what we have to remember is that the actual bombers are not the terrorists, they are as much victims as those others who were killed. It is the fat rich leaders who manipulate these young men (often teenagers still) and twist their religions, turning ordinary young men into fanatics that are the real terrorists, and yet they sit in their homes, oil rich and laughing to themselves as western people are constrained by a shroud of fear and suspicion, hating every man with a beard and a backpack.
Cultural education in this country is at an all time low, having moved from a 'multicultural' society it always shocks me to hear someone brand someone a 'Paki', without the slightest bit of knowledge not only of what a 'Paki' could be, but whether the person is in fact islamic, hindu or sikh (or a different culture) or the implications of any.
I for one will be educating my children about the joy there is to be found in difference.


Sorry, a bit of a rant there, but I can't help but feel these young men whose lives are manipulated by their elders are being deamonised, and it present a definate 'us and them' mentality which is dangerous to all.

[cooky37]

The problem is that Saudi Arabia (our allie) is still teaching antsemitic, antichristian, antiwest in their schools. another generation of human fodder

[ninjabear]

Don't need to see the movie.
United 93 fell to Earth a short drive down the highway from where I live.
I stood at the edge of that field of smoking debris until a State Trooper asked me what I was doing there.
I told him I was making it real; until then, it was all just pictures on TV.
The cop---a big, corn-fed, Pennsylvania State Police Corporal---stared at me for a moment; long enough to see that wasn't just smoke in his eyes.

Until we learn not just to get along, but work together, we will never see the future that Star Trek promises.

"Going to war over religion is like fighting over who has the best imaginary friend."
Stand-up philosopher Richard Jeni

[lucifer666 (deleted)]

With all due respect to the American people writing here as I have a love for alot of what America used to represent and stand for (I'm sure alot of their people still do) but I really think now that your people are not given a full unbiased view nor do I think you are told every story when it comes to terrorism or Iraq. One quote keeps echoing in my mind "One man's terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter" The Western Worlds seem determined to convince everyone that Terrorism is a unprovoked attack on Democracy, freedom and our way of life and in a way it is an attack on those things but can we safely say it is unprovoked?? Look even at the current problems of Israel at the moment alot of that was originally caused by the Western Nations giving the Palestinian land to the Jewish people in the first place and I also firmly believe that the systematic bias behaviour by the Americans (A super Power) throughout the years and even demonstrated today is also part of the problem. Don't get me wrong I have much sympathy for the Jewish people after the Holocaust but that does not give them free right to kill so many children and innocents ........ two wrongs do not make a right!! Instead of destroying terrorism Israeli violence is acting like a recruitment Agency for Hesbolah multiplying ill feeling in the region and America's undying and unwavering support just double's that effect. I know many say that that the world has changed since the horrific attacks of September 11 and this has altered American foreign policy and it has but truthfully I think America always had a tendency to wrongfully inferfere in affairs abroad and those 9/11 attrocities give a very hawkish American administration a great excuse to do what it couldn't before ....... go on a crusade across the middle East trying to secure oil reserves under the premise of bringing democracy to the masses.....the latter very much an after thought (maybe not politically but definitely in practice)
Is Terrorism futile?? .....No of course not!! I come from The Republic of Ireland who used terrorism to gain its freedom from the British (We were funded and supported by the Americans at that time I might add) Though in saying that Irish terrorism was less fanatical ....military targets were selected and no suicide bombers employed. Terrorism is a vicious circle today due to the new way of dealing with fantics and because of the big Powers in the Western World not addressing their responsibility on why there is such hatred flung towards them. The British have to try and talk to the Northern Ireland groups because of two reasons 1. They have tried everything else to no avail and 2. They are the cause of it all by invading Ireland in the first place. Without talking, trying to discover why, or understand the new terrorist's reasons or motivations towards a more violent solution the Western World have absolutely no hope of ending this scourge instead like I said earlier we will just go round and round in a vicious circle!!

Seeing that you like to quote Star Trek lines here's some for you Ninjabear that spring to mind ......

"History has shown us, that strength may be useless when faced with terrorism." Capt. Picard in The High Ground

"A matter of internal security: the age-old cry of the oppressor." Capt Picard in The Hunted

[invisiblesteph]

Nothing gives anyone the right to murder someone else. Whether its in the name of "justice" or not, whether provoked or not. I think more people need to look at the work and life of India's Mahatma Gandhi. He was the advocate for justice through non-violence and had some sucesses with it. It goes to show that you dont need violence to solve your problems. I will add here a few of his quotes I think are relevant to this discussion and I hope that you will all read them and think upon them.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

"There are many causes that I am prepared to die for but no causes that I am prepared to kill for."

[kiraofborg_PREV (deleted)]

Hey all,

All wars generally start with a disagreement, just like what we are doing here. There is no way we will all agree what is right and what is wrong. You say Americans don't get the truth, heck, noone does. It is human nature to put ones own emotion and feeling into any story that is being told. All news that is reported is given a slant, right or wrong it is still given a slant and it is up to the receiver of that msg to decide for themself. No, we will never have the Star Trek world and belief for real because it is against human nature.

People have been getting killed for religion, politics or for the heck of it since time began and that will never change. I for one am an open minded person but I do not feel bad about those fighting our troops getting killed. Call them what you want, terrorists or freedom fighters, the bottom line is that they are the enemy of our troops so that makes them bad.

Our troops are bold enough to fight and die for your beliefs even if they dont agree with you. To defend someones right to hate you is an admirable thing to do. For those of you who do not feel the same way about this that I do, I frankly do not care. Quit your whining, take your life for granted and do nothing to better the world other than complain about things. I am very closed minded when it comes to supporting all the troops and if you don't then simply SHUT UP. For those of you who say you support the troops but not the war, quit lying to yourself. If you do not support the job they are doing, you do not support them. Stop trying to make yourself feel better by lying about it.

Tonight, while you are lying there trying to sleep, what do you see when the demons come? Are you a good American or a piece of trash that others are willing to die for.

Kira

[invisiblesteph]

"All wars generally start with a disagreement, just like what we are doing here. There is no way we will all agree what is right and what is wrong."

I dont think that fact is in debate. I think how you act upon a disagreement is in debate. Yes noone is ever going to see eye to eye but it doesnt mean someone has to die because of it. Wars are not going to stop by means of everyone agreeing, they should stop because in war, there are no winners.

[lucifer666 (deleted)]

First of all Steph I do like the philosophy whether it will work today in the way the world is I don't know ....I do love the quotes though particularly "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." very good!!



Thats where your wrong straight up Kira news reports shouldn't be told with a certain slant right or wrong in mind but even handed giving the viewer a fair view of whats happening.
You say "Our troops are bold enough to fight and die for your beliefs even if they dont agree with you." Well they don't die for my beliefs and funny enough I don't think they die for a hell of a lot of American beliefs either instead the poor soldiers out there are dying because of an American Administration's foreign agenda which in particular in Iraq had nothing to do with Terrorism!! And you make wild accusations there but can back up none Kira ....how exactly has the mess in Iraq and now even in Afghanastan bettered the world? .....people complain because certain actions only make things worse not better but you seem to advocate that everyone should remain quiet or as you put it Shut Up! about it even if they can see mistakes being made ....... Tell me this Kira how do you promote freedom, Democracy and basic rights to certain middle East countries (that your soldiers are there in Iraq, etc trying to do) when your country is telling those countrymen around them to be silent, have you ever heard of Freedom of Speech? Kira's comments have just echoed my biggest fear of Terrorism as I think it could be a very real threat against Democracy ...though not directly ....No We ourselves will destroy our own freedoms, Liberties and Democracies out of fear and paranoia ....our democracies have already changed so much now that we can imprison those without charge and preemptively strike and envade other countries. I quote lines from Trek again and I do take your point Kira that we will never have a Star Trek World but I'm going to quote from a particularly unusual episode of Trek it was an episode called The Drumhead and I believe it very much resembles where things are and where they are going today. It was one of my favourite episodes of Trek about paranoia and witch hunts...

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning… The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we’re all damaged.................. Capt.Jean Luc Picard (The Drumhead)

Lieutenant Worf: Sir, the Federation *does* have enemies. We must seek them out.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Oh, yes. That's how it starts. Then the path between legitimate suspicion and rampant paranoia is very much shorter than we think. Something is wrong here, Worf. I don't like what we've become.

Its funny because truthfully I don't like what we have become either ....and the problem is its only getting worse!!

[iswallowedabug (deleted)]

“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing
ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.â€Â
-- F. Scott Fitzgerald

Our intelligence and our humanity are what make us capable of being
able to believe that killing is wrong but still support a war, or to support
the troops while being against a war, or to be completely open-minded
and tolerant, except in one area.

Oh, peer pressure; everyone is quoting Picard, so here goes:
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another."--Picard

But what happens when a being usurps the rights of another? Can one
tread on the usurpers rights to make him/her stop? Or is that further
usurping also forbidden? To be consistent, one could argue, you would
have to take a completely non-violent pacifist stance, perhaps like the
Quakers, but this is hardly human nature.

One intriguing science fiction exploration of this comes in Asimov’s
various robot stories from his three Laws. Rules forbidding harming
someone are not always consistent with rules requiring you to prevent
someone from coming to any harm precisely because people tend to
harm each other. The robot stories explore the frustration and madness
that ensue from being unable to comply with these opposing rules.
Fitzgerald’s quote is quite insightful, and it is interesting to ponder what
allows us to function at all when faced with so many outside stimuli that
cause inner conflict.

When is revenge warranted? When is striking back a justified response
and not revenge? Where do mercy, compassion, and decency find
expression when faced with an enemy who does not employ them (or
does not seem to)? If we show mercy for an enemy who is clearly evil,
is that in conflict with showing compassion for the victims of that enemy?

There’s a great line towards the end of Heinlein’s “Stranger in a strange
land†about mercy not being possible for angels because “angelic
compassion left no room for it.â€Â

Of course, not being angels or starship captains, where do we find our
own course of action?

“We tend to become like the worst in those we oppose.†Bene Gesserit
Coda (the Dune books)

[invisiblesteph]

iswallowedabug wrote:

Oh, peer pressure; everyone is quoting Picard, so here goes:
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another."--Picard

But what happens when a being usurps the rights of another? Can one
tread on the usurpers rights to make him/her stop? Or is that further
usurping also forbidden? To be consistent, one could argue, you would
have to take a completely non-violent pacifist stance, perhaps like the
Quakers, but this is hardly human nature.



First of all I love that quote!!

Secondly that paragraph reminds me of the Phrase "Your rights stop where mine start" Rights often overlap like most things in life where they stop being black and white and become a kind of gray area.

[kiraofborg_PREV (deleted)]

I